Why AMD has pushed me back to Intel

[Witch]

I've been a devout AMD follower for a long time. I've followed all their chipsets and processors, digging up whatever information I could get on them. The events that have driven me to the Intel side were inevitable, the best I can put it. It's certainly not all AMDs fault as their processors are truly no less stable than Intel's. However, I think there is a major reason why Intel will always shine over AMD despite the processing power that AMD can bring to their slower-clocked CPUs.

I entered the self-built scene right before the dawning of the VIA KT133 chipset. It didn't take me long to realize that these chipsets were comparitively unstable, save for a select few. Alot of that I think falls into the blame of not only VIA, but in the power designs of Taiwanese manufacturers like Abit, Asus, Epox, MSI, Chaintech, etc. Anything that is not Intel/Intel, is Taiwanese, or AMD. However, AMD has not since manufactured a motherboard since the Slot A platform. Although, they do manufacture chipsets from time to time. AMD 761, and 762, for example.
However, they are still dependent on Taiwan to manufacture their motherboards for them.

When my KT133 motherboard bit the dust after massive stability problems and such in only six months of use, I later acquired an ECS K7S5A motherboard utilizing the Sis735 chipset. It is actually a good motherboard in my opinion, just that ECS was trying to make this motherboard broadly compatible, when in fact it was not despite their claims that it supports anything you can put in it. AMD also found out about this, and does not recommend it but for Palomino core AMD cpus and 900-1000mhz Durons. I sent it back and picked up a nice KT266A chipset. Not too long ago, I came to find out this motherboard is affected by the Taiwan capacitor electrolyte formula scandal that weakens the walls and causes overheating/leaking and sometimes explosion. This motherboard is dead, now, and I'm typing this on a 350mhz PII machine.

Now the question is, what is AMDs fault? Well, the fact is, you can't do a whole lot to control what Taiwan sticks to their dilapitated motherboards. In an effort to compete, they will inherently use cheaper designs to give the most bang for the buck. Interestingly enough, a Taiwan capacitor only costs five cents less than a Japanese capacitor. But that's really alot of money saved when you manufacture a few million motherboards. Other little things that they will do is choose to not use more than two power legs to the motherboard, or, if they do use three legs, then they will skimp on things like capacitors, MOSFETS, and power regulators that will heat them up anyway. It seems like any way the cookie crumbles, you're screwed. Heat applied to the motherboard by it's power circuit is longstanding problem with AMD motherboards. It's hard to convince me otherwise. I've seen too many black-screen horror-stories, and I'm well aware of how hot this circuit gets. Too hot to touch is too hot, and too hot for the motherboard.

Well, I kinda left VIA hanging. The story on VIA actually ends with the KT133A chipset. So there isn't much else to tell, except that VIA had problems implementing its own designs and creating its own chipset drivers that were not Intel standards. They have, as a matter of fact, come full circle since then to create a great chipset. The KT400 utilizing Hyperion drivers. Not much to complain about there.

The only damning thing that looms over AMD now are the Taiwan capacitors used beginning some time in 2001, and coming to an end only this year with the nforce2 chipset. There have been great numbers of these caps failing. Such to the point that many people who are good at soldering are now making a living acquiring these dead motherboards, replacing them with Japanese capacitors and reselling them. This problem obviously is not limited to AMD motherboards. Any piece of electronics that have used these affected capacitors are almost certainly doomed. We've seen the obscure little news articles about it. Well I'm here to say it's true. It's happening right now to people. I'm one of them.
This isn't AMDs fault, directly, of course....

Now, I've come to see what the nforce2 chipset offerings are made of. Not to name any names but a couple are only using a two-leg power scheme. One of those, however is using one of the best voltage regulators you can get. The ones that are using a three-leg power scheme are using the cheapest voltage regulator and MOSFET chips they could get their hands on. Most of them, on the other hand, are using Japanese capacitors for all of their motherboards. I do, however, know of one that is using GSC(Taiwan) for its low-end model. My god, ain't that a piece of crap on wheels? To make matters worse, almost all forum halls are ringing of bios writes corrupting the bios chip itself just by saving changes to it. With limited resources, I've often wondered what the correlation between bios battery dependence and design of the nvidia chipset. Despite many people's great luck with these motherboards, I am still seeing very convincing allegations that there is a known bios power issue with ALL nvidia Nforce2 motherboards. It just might take a weak battery to kill it. With that said, I am not at all impressed by AMD nforce2 motherboards because of the fact that they are not new by any means. It is inexcusable to be having such broadly related problems on a chipset that was released four months ago.

So what is AMDs fault? They don't manufacture their own motherboards.
As a matter of fact, I have my eye on an Intel 4-phase motherboard with silver Japanese capacitors. I drool over that, and lament the problems of AMD, and the money I have WASTED!!! Well, the games are over for me, play them yourself, if you like. Good luck to you AMD folks, I will as always be in touch with AMD, but I cannot in good sense spend one more dime on their trinket motherboards that they now have available. I am highly interested in what SIS intends to bring to the table. Struck out by VIA, struck out by Nvidia. Unless you can tell me a KT400 using Japanese capacitors. If that exists, which I'm sure it does, I would consider that instead. I just don't have any evidence as to which ones have them.
Thank you for reading this rant. AMD: 0, Intel: 1.
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[Mixam]

Nice rant. I myselft use a K7S5A, and it works flawlessly for me. Of course I use an Athlon XP, and most of the problems related to the K7S5A were with the earlier athlons and durons. Its kinda weird really, the earlier versions worked with the earlier athlons and durons, but not the XP, the later ones did the opposite. They also have a very cheap thermal interface on the northbridge, which is actually insulating tape, and caused many people's boards to not work. If you replace that tape with thermal paste, I can assure you it is a very stable motherboard.

I do see your point though, in that all the people manufacturing for AMD are using the cheapest parts they can find. But then again so do the companies manufacturing for Intel, with the exception of Intel itself.

Personally I don't really mind if I have to resolder on some better capaciters if I see mine leaking. The alternative is to pay way too much money for an Intel motherboard and an Intel chip. I own an intel chip in my sis laptop, but that is because AMD laptop chipsets are not as good as of when I bought it. As far as I know they are still not as good.

Oh well done replying for now.

[Quasar]

I can't really say I agree with Witch, but I do admire his thoroughness in the rant. He actually does bring up a lot of interesting points, but I'm not sure how many people actually have the problems with the capacitors.

Fact is, Intel has also had their fair share of problems. I'm not even going to touch on the 1GHz fiasco, but Intel motherboards weren't always the most stable or fastest until they started R&D'ing their own. Now, I know this is what Witch is saying, about how AMD should start doing this also, but it takes a lot of resources to start this (or improve upon).
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So, I'm not a n00b. When do I become a gomo?

[Fo3]

I've mainly used amd based systems, and via chipsets at that. Mainly Asus socket A and a few asus slot 1 intel. Never had a single problem, although most of them were second revision versions (133A, 266A). I agree that via has done a lot of damage with their first revision chipsets, after all most people bought via mobo's for their higher performance over ali or sis, and to buy a lemon would turn you of via, and perhaps amd, (as the other chipsets are so crash hot either). Poor quality designs are rampant in both intel and amd systems. I think amd also would have to make their own boards to have a chance in gaining respect for reliablity in the corporate world. A lot of 3rd party intel chipset boards are just as dodgy, ibm and abit are caught up in the bad taiwanese cap issues. But at least if you want the option you can get an intel cpu/ intel board. AMD already make their own chipsets, and my compaq socket 7 amd chipset board is still going strongly as my server (takes 256mb sticks- a rarity for s7 boards) and with passive cooling for the cpu probably doesnt run that cool-even the psu fan runs on it's thermostat, so its not running all the time Havent heard anything good about their 266 chipsets though, maybe thats why theyve not done anything about making their own boards, they have yet to match performance of chipset competitors. I'd buy them if they were released though.

[moshpit]

I had to register just to reply to this one, witch. I've been building and supporting PC's for 6 years now, and on my most recent contract I built more PCs then I can count. I also supported those PCs and all the ones that IMS computers had built before my time with them. In all my time in this industry, I've seen as many or MORE cheap boards for Intel procs as I've seen for AMD. I've seen MANY blown capacitors ranging from MSI to Tyan to Asus and Abit boards, just to name the higher quality ones I've seen blow up. Sometimes it's due to cheap capacitors, sometimes not. A good surge can blow a capacitor right off the board!

You make good, one-sided points, but that one-sidedness is what invalidates your points. As I personally have had to replace mobos for blown capacitors on 440BX based mainboards more then any other, I'd say your difficulties have engendered a feeling of failure in you that isn't being correctly directed.

You go ahead and buy that nice, shiney P4 mobo setup then. I just have to say you're not doing it for the right reasons. I like Intel as much as I like AMD, both have kicked a$$ for me since I came into this industry, the only time I had issues with AMD was when K6 was a high-power heating element for my PC.

The blown capacitors issue isn't just AMD based and I think you know that, but are feeling to whiny to accept it right now.

PS- I've been seeing alot of dead P2-300 and 350's lately. Does that mean that since I've seen alot of still running K6-2 300's, that K6 is a more reliable chip? I think not.
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WinXP Pro

[Hal]

Most stability problems I have experienced with AMD and Intel systems have usually been from using cheaper Memory or power supplies.
Its more than the motherboard / CPU that can cause stability problems.
I have seen more faulty Intel boards that AMD boards working as a Service Technician. Most genuine Intel boards are manufactured in Taiwan. Leaking capacitors aren't just linked to AMD boards I have just seen a Dual Intel systems board Die recently due to leaking Caps.
Remember research before you buy and only use quality components if you are after stability.
I am typing this out on : Athlon XP 1800+ ECS K7S5A 512 MB (KINGMAX PC2100) Leadtek Geforce 4 4200 64MB (Overclocked 250 core, 550 mem). Toppower 400w Power supply. SB Live. IBM 60GXP 40gb, Sony 6X DVD, Sony 16x10x40x CD writer.
Also Witch were you overclocking? that is a sure way of causing instsablility and capacitors to explode especially with a low quality power supply.
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[Quasar]

I had a long discussion with a classmate today about stability. He insists AMD is unstable, and Intel is, and my opinion is opposite. I can't believe people are still making judgments on AMD based on past history, when ever since the Thunderbirds, their systems are rock solid as long as you use some common sense when slapping a rig together.
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So, I'm not a n00b. When do I become a gomo?

[Doodle]

[Goldaar]

Very Nice rant, one of the longest, and most thorough i have seen in a long time, but i am going to have to agree with this Doodle. If you are not going to name names, but you bring it up, your points might as well be invalid, and unsubstantiated. Im not saying they are, but credibility requires you to at least give company names, even if not specific products, just to give us an idea of what companys to look at for our own research.

If i see a forum that has a lot of capacitor problems, and they name lets say Abit, then I am going to assume that there is a problem with the boards, and i will look into it further, but if only that forum finds the problem, I cannot say I will heed the warnings, as they are isolated incidents. By not telling us the companies you have made it so any board failure we see can can be the companies you dont metion, this means that an isolated failure by a good company that you think is a good company is put on the same level as a very bad company.

I hope this posts makes sense seeings how what i was thinking was hard to type. Mostly what im saying is that without names, any company could be considered "guilty" of this even when they are not "guilty".
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[sandviper]

There was a story on about leaking capacitors a while back.

As for this thread, I'm in serious disagreement with Witch about this, though I do respect the fact that it's his opinion, and I speak for VL (feel free to jump in guys ) when I say that this isn't a good arguement to switch to Intel. A couple years ago, this would have been a good arguement to start a debate, but now it's a moot point. Let's look at a few facts...

I entered the self-built scene right before the dawning of the VIA KT133 chipset. It didn't take me long to realize that these chipsets were comparitively unstable, save for a select few.

Yes, early KT133s were far from being THE performance king. Things improved though, and the fact is, nobody would dare use a KT133 in 2003.

However, AMD has not since manufactured a motherboard since the Slot A platform...<snipped>... However, they are still dependent on Taiwan to manufacture their motherboards for them.

I don't really see a problem with this. It saves AMD money, and it gives the consumer a choice in what chipset to go with. Think of how boring AMD would be if only they made the chipsets.

I later acquired an ECS K7S5A motherboard utilizing the Sis735 chipset. It is actually a good motherboard in my opinion, just that ECS was trying to make this motherboard broadly compatible, when in fact it was not despite their claims that it supports anything you can put in it.

All computing platforms can suffer this problem of promising support. A manufacturer can't predict what CPU in the future will work in their product, so it's possible a CPU won't work. Has everyone forgotten the screwjob Intel did with their Willamette to Northwood switch?

Well, the fact is, you can't do a whole lot to control what Taiwan sticks to their dilapitated motherboards. In an effort to compete, they will inherently use cheaper designs to give the most bang for the buck. Interestingly enough, a Taiwan capacitor only costs five cents less than a Japanese capacitor.

Ok, this is true. AMD, or Intel for that matter, can't hand hold every step the manufacturer takes in building a board, but this problem won't necessarily be solved by AMD making it's own chipsets.

Fact of the matter is, I have worked with shoddy Intel boards, both past and present. By the same token, the very same shoddy boards worked fine when replaced. Also, guess where a big chunk of Intel boards are made? Taiwan as well. What I'm trying to tell all of you is AMD platforms are just as solid as Intel platforms. The leaking capacitors may happen, but it takes a couple years to happen, if at all. I don't know about the rest of you, but even before VL, I was buying and replacing mobos at a much quicker rate.

As for the nForce2 not being new, well, nobody has a chipset that is truly new. All current chipsets are just mature versions of the previous chipsets with some new features.

Anyhow, I'm not saying don't go to Intel. What I am saying is that there isn't anything wrong with AMD as a platform, and because they don't make their own chipsets these days for the home consumer, I find there is more variety than Intel.
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[Arias74]

just like moshpit, i registered just so i can reply to the original post.

i work for a company that is one of the largest oem builders in our region. we ship out approximately 2000 systems a month. we are primarily an intel shop, so i think that we have a pretty good idea of what's good and what's not.

also, i'd like to include my own personal experiences with PCs, which is primarily with AMD systems. i have been building systems for the last 6 years, and have personally built about 20 systems for myself and friends and family.

as far as stability goes, i have had a number of issues concerning AMD mobos. currently, i am using an Epox 8k7a mobo with an AMD 760 chipset. btw, great mobo... no problems whatsoever. i have tried several Abit KG7-RAID mobos, all very unstable. random lockups and such. before that, i had an ECS K7S5A. very stable except when using Netgear NICs. In fact, my brothers system, which i helped build, still uses that mobo with an Athlon 1.4GHz. for almost 18 months, it's been running like a champ.

as far as intel systems goes, at work used to use an asus board for our systems. however, we've had to switch to gigabyte because of an inherent defect in the asus boards. both boards use the intel 810 chipset, but the asus board would simply start having problems within 3-6 months of use, sometimes sooner. we ALWAYS swap out an asus board for a gigabyte board whenever we run into one.

the whole point to this post is that, with either platform, you will find issues. it took me a little while to find the right system, but now that i'm there, i couldn't be happier. the best advice i could give anyone is not to get too concerned with just cpus, but the entire system itself, from the mobo all the way to the psu and everything in between. a pc is not a single component, but a collection of different components made by different manufacturers. if you do a little research and purchase quality components, then you will more often than not have a quality system. case in point, in my AMD system right now, i'm using an Intel NIC. i use whatever works well...

[sandviper]

Well said, and welcome to the newest members. Hope you guys stick around.
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[UnknownSouljer]

I think we all have individual experiences with companies and such so that our vision gets scewed and we lean to a particular side, this can lead to zealotry which I see almost EVERY day.

From stuff like PC vs MAC being hardcore one way or the other, to swearing that they will never buy another IBM harddrive ever again for the rest of their life.

In other words what I am saying is that for many people with the good experiences from the hardware that they are using learn to become enthusists for that company(s) and those that have not so good experinces express their disccus for those companies.

Do I have companies that I won't buy from? Sure I do just like everyone else, but it's not so much an AMD vs Intel, it's more just resellers that I won't buy from. I trust companies like Abit, Asus, and Epox that have been around for a while or have contributed major movements forward as far as development or usefulness and well rounded packages, and I tend to stay away from Gigabyte and MSI simply because I don't like the way they do things.

If you don't like AMD, that's okay. I've always been an underdog guy so I have been running AMD systems since my 100mhz K5. Hell, I am still rooting for S3 and Matrix I hope they come back into the performance graphics card sector strong.
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[VoOdoO]

Great post Witch A good read, but I have to agree with what others have said. Any system can be unstable, regardless of either Intel or AMD. I swiched to AMD systems around the time of the 266, and whilst I'm not a fanboy of either company, the reason I switched was because my Intel system proved unstable, mainly with USB devices. AMD systems were a lot cheaper to build than Intel back then, and I've personally not had a problem with any system I've built since, both Intel and AMD. I personally have no prefrence at all, even tho I've not since owned an Intel system. Last system I built (just last week infact) was a 2.53 p4, and have to say I would love such a system, but I also wouldn't mind having a Barton 2500.

Just my tuppence worth
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[ElementXsoftwarE]

Yea, it is really easy to have one bad experience make up a decision for you. I use AMD in my computers as I can't see spending the extra on an intel. I do, however, own both AMD and Intel systems, though the newer are AMD. I guess it is really all just up to personal preference though. I've always like the "more bang for your buck" statement about AMD processors though
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